8594E CAL半带宽永远运行

嗨 - 你的8594E有选项103，QPD探测器吗？
选项130，窄分辨率BW怎么样？
如果两个选项都不存在，内部校准程序将尝试校准9 kHz和120 kHz EMI 6 dB分辨率带宽。
例程调整实际带宽以及带宽幅度。
8590系列的分辨率带宽滤波器是可调节的。
调整过程在服务指南中，但需要特殊工具，例如水晶和LC短裤以及非金属调整工具或调整器。
如果您没有这些工具，我怀疑您可以通过安捷伦科技公司订购它们，因为这些产品超出了他们的支持期。
安捷伦服务中心可以为您进行这些调整，以确定是否可以使例行程序加速并通过。
只是为了好玩，按Cal，更多，更多，服务诊断，显示校准数据，让我知道每个带宽读取的BWAMP，LC和XTAL列。
如果本仪器中存在选项130，请包括9K和120K以及200H。
请包括衰减器1,2,4,8和16的ATT ERR编号。问候 -



     以下为原文

  Hi -

Does your 8594E have option 103, QPD Detector?  How about option 130, Narrow Resolution BW’s?

If neither options are present, the internal calibration routine is trying to calibrate the 9 kHz and 120 kHz EMI 6 dB resolution bandwidths.  The routine adjusts for the actual bandwidth as well as the bandwidth amplitude.  The resolution bandwidth filters on an 8590 series are adjustable.  The adjustment process is in the service guide, but does require special tools, such as the crystal and LC shorts and a non-metallic adjustment tool or tweaker.  If you don’t have these tools, I doubt you can order them through Agilent Technologies since these products are beyond their support period.  An Agilent service center can make these adjustments for you to see if that will get the routine to speed up and pass.

Just for fun, press the Cal, More, More, Service Diag, Display Cal Data and let me know what the BWAMP, LC and XTAL columns read for each Bandwidth.  Please include the 9K and 120K and 200H if option 130 exists in this instrument.  Please include the ATT ERR numbers for attenuators 1, 2, 4, 8, and 16.

Regards -

您好tabbott，非常感谢您的回答:)我在第一篇文章中发布了选项：OPT 41 - 119 - UK6没有103或130.您问我的所有值都在我之前的帖子图片中：6dB BWAMP LC XTL
200H -0.03 0 121 9k 0.80 128 128 120k 0.30 45 255 CA ATT ERR 1 -0.08 2 -0.04 4 0.11 8 0.08我解决了大多数运行自校准，重置为默认值并反复运行的问题。
当分析仪到达我时，振幅校准不是100％正常，我做了：CAL AMPTD - 未找到呼叫信号-37 Hz + CAL AMPTD - 运行，测试永不结束Conf测试不要工作-37 Hz + CAL AMPTD几次，
没结束。
默认校准数据CAL频率 - 未找到呼叫信号-37 Hz + CAL Feq - OK CAL AMPTD - 未找到呼叫信号-37 Hz + CAL AMPTD - OK Conf test don'work屏幕上无信号，包括背景噪声默认校准数据 -
37 Hz + CAL Feq - OK -37 Hz + CAL AMPTD - OK conf测试 - 步进增益/ attn失败0步进增益/ attn失败2000 conf测试失败幅度看起来没问题我有信号 - 2Ghz屏幕上出现“Freq Uncal”错误
和CAL Feq - OK - 没有freq uncal错误，发现不需要输入-37Hz进行CAL运行conf测试 - 步进增益/ attn失败0步进增益/ attn失败2000 conf测试失败现在背景噪声为-30
具有2.9 Ghz跨度的dBm，缩小约为-90 dBm，不是所有尺度我不敢重新运行CAL AMPTD如果它回到坏值有关更多信息，请参阅我之前的帖子再次感谢。



     以下为原文

  Hello tabbott, many thanks for answering :)

I posted the options in the first post:
OPT 41 - 119 - UK6
Don't have 103 or 130.
All the values you are asking me are in my previous post picture:

6dB    BWAMP   LC   XTL
200H  -0.03         0     121
9k      0.80          128  128
120k   0.30         45    255

CA ATT ERR
1 -0.08
2 -0.04
4  0.11
8  0.08

I solved most of the problems running self calibration, resetting to default values and running again and again.
When the analyzer arrived to me amplitude calibration was not 100% ok, I did:

CAL AMPTD - call signal not found
-37 Hz + CAL AMPTD - Run, test never ends
Conf test don' work
-37 Hz + CAL AMPTD several times, didn't end.

Default cal data
CAL Frequency - call signal not found
-37 Hz + CAL Feq - OK
CAL AMPTD - call signal not found
-37 Hz + CAL AMPTD - OK
Conf test don' work
No signal on screen, including background noise

Default cal data
-37 Hz + CAL Feq - OK
-37 Hz + CAL AMPTD - OK
conf test - Step gain/attn fail 0
                Step gain/attn fail 2000
                conf test fail
Amplitude looks OK I have signal - "Freq Uncal" error on the screen in 2Ghz and up

CAL Feq - OK - No freq uncal error, find didn't need to enter -37Hz for CAL to run
conf test - Step gain/attn fail 0
                Step gain/attn fail 2000
                conf test fail

Now background noise is at -30 dBm with 2.9 Ghz span, narrowing is about -90 dBm, not in all scales
I dare not rerun CAL AMPTD if it goes back to bad values

For more information please see my previous posts

Thanks again.

再一次问好。
我一直在阅读服务指南并且有一个“警告”说：将晶体测试点短接到地可能会永久性地损坏带宽板组件。
如果你自己制作短裤，建议将裸线和连接器绝缘。
所以，可以制作短裤，但我不知道它们是如何制作的。
它只是一块短接晶体的电线？
如果分辨率带宽滤波器未经调整，我不明白为什么有时分析仪自校准非常糟糕，而其他分析仪则不那么糟糕。



     以下为原文

  Hello again.
I've have been reading the service guide and there is a "Caution" that says:

Shorting the crystal test points to ground may permanently damage the
bandwidth board assembly. If you make your own shorts, it is advisable
to insulate the bare wires and connectors.

So, shorts can be made but I have no idea how are them made. It is just a piece of wire to short the crystals?

If the resolution bandwidth filters are unadjusted I don't understand why sometimes the analyzer self calibrate really bad and others not so bad.

我做了这个测试：绝对幅度不确定性 - 通过约-20.08 dB（边距-20.15到-19.85）的良好结果分辨率带宽切换不确定性 - 通过最佳值+ - 0.13 dB最大值（边距+ - 0.4 dB）



     以下为原文

  I did this tests:

Absolute Amplitude Uncertainty - Passed with good results about -20.08 dB (Margins -20.15 to -19.85)
Resolution Bandwidth Switching Uncertainty - Passed excellent about +- 0.13 dB maximum (Margins +- 0.4 dB)

我发现水晶短裤是怎么样的！
在8559A服务手册中;）1个0.01μF串联电容，1个电阻90.9欧姆加连接器。
需要搜索此连接器的方式。
如果我建造这个短裤他们会使用8594E ???
谢谢。



     以下为原文

  I find how the crystal shorts are!!!! In the 8559A Service Manual ;)

1 capacitor 0.01 microF in series with 1 resistor 90.9 Ohms plus connectors. Need to search how this connectors are.

If I build this shorts will them work with the 8594E???
Thank you.

好吧，对于连接器，我会使用进入孔的东西;）我必须选择什么？
对于电阻器： - 91欧姆1 / 4W 5％碳膜 - 90.9欧姆1/4瓦1％精密金属膜用于电容器： - CBB 250V 103 103J 0,01uF 10nF 5％ - 0.01uF（2.5％tol）160v聚苯乙烯轴向
电容器 - WIMA MKC2 0.01uF 100V 5％（金属化聚碳酸酯薄膜） - WIMA MKP2 0.01uF 250V 5％（金属化聚丙烯薄膜） - CBB22 0.01uF 630V 5％（金属化聚丙烯薄膜）



     以下为原文

  Well, for connectors I'll use something that enters the holes ;)
What must I choose???
For resistors:

- 91 Ohm 1/4W 5% Carbon Film
- 90.9 Ohm 1/4 Watt 1% Precision Metal Film

For capacitors:

- CBB 250V 103 103J 0,01uF 10nF 5%
- 0.01uF (2.5 % tol) 160v polystyrene Axial capacitor
- WIMA MKC2 0.01uF 100V 5% (Metalized Polycarbonate Film)
- WIMA MKP2 0.01uF 250V 5% (Metalized Polypropylene Film)
- CBB22 0.01uF 630V 5% (Metalized Polypropylene Film)

没有答案所以...我订购： - 90.9欧姆1/2瓦1％金属膜 - 0.01uF（2.5％tol）160v聚苯乙烯轴向电容器将看到会发生什么。



     以下为原文

  No answers so...
I ordered:

- 90.9 Ohm 1/2 Watt 1% Metal Film
- 0.01uF (2.5 % tol) 160v polystyrene Axial capacitor

Will see what happens.

嗨 - 您的BWAMP校正数字看起来都非常好，所以我认为您不需要使用前一篇文章中提到的短裤调整水晶和LC极点。
有关的校正值在RFATN列中，并查看较低的数字。
您发布的图像显示70 dB衰减器步长的-22.03 dB校正，但所有其他步骤看起来都很好。
我不确定您对故障排除工具的访问权限，但我会将已知振幅的信号注入94E的RF输入连接器。
我将从信号源的0 dBm RF输入开始。
然后，您需要仔细访问输入衰减器并断开其输出半刚性电缆，并连接到已知良好的频谱分析仪或功率计，以连接到该输入衰减器输出SMA连接器。
如果通过前面板将输入衰减设置为0 dB，则SA或PM应读取0 dBm。
从0,10,20等开始以10 dB的步长调整输入衰减器，并在每个点进行测量。
例如，在SA或PM上，40 dB的输入衰减应测量为-40 dBm。
当你达到70 dB的输入衰减时会发生什么？
SA或PM是否读取-70 dB或其他方式？
有3个主要部分构成总共70 dB的输入衰减;
10 dB，20 dB和40 dB。
组合用于实现0-70dB的衰减。
由于10 dB，20 dB和40 dB校正看起来不错，70 dB应该可以，但事实并非如此。
您可能有间歇性或粘性部分，因此在确认操作时请多次运动衰减器。
也许一个寒冷的开始会加剧失败。
这也会丢掉你的Log和Lin修正号码。
BW和CA ATT ERR数字看起来也很好。
基本问题是70 dB输入衰减器校正。
输入衰减器不可用，但某些内部部件（如10 db，20 dB和40 dB电路焊盘）仍可订购。
希望这可以帮助 -



     以下为原文

  Hi -

Your BWAMP correction numbers all look very good, so I don’t think you need to adjust the crystal and LC poles by using the shorts you mentioned in your previous post.  The concerning correction value is in the RFATN column and look at the lower number.  The image you posted is showing a -22.03 dB correction for the 70 dB attenuator step, yet all other steps look good.  I’m not sure what your access is to troubleshooting tools, but I would inject a signal of known amplitude into the RF input connector on the 94E.  I would start with an RF input of 0 dBm from a signal source.  You will then need to access the input attenuator and disconnect its output semi rigid cable carefully and connect to a known good spectrum analyzer or power meter to that input attenuator output SMA connector.  If you set the input attenuation to 0 dB via the front panel, the SA or PM should read 0 dBm.  Adjust the input attenuator in 10 dB steps from 0, 10 , 20, etc. and measure at each point.  40 dB of input attenuation should measure -40 dBm on the SA or PM for example.  What happens when you get to 70 dB of input attenuation?  Does the SA or PM read -70 dB or something way off?

There are 3 main sections that make up a total of 70 dB of input attenuation; 10 dB, 20 dB and 40 dB.  Combinations are used to achieve 0-70 dB worth of attenuation.  Since the 10 dB, 20 dB and 40 dB corrections look good, the 70 dB should be OK to, but it’s not.  You may have an intermittent or sticky section, so exercise the attenuator several time when confirming operation.  Perhaps a cold start would exacerbate the failure.  This is also throwing off your Log and Lin correction numbers.  The BW and CA ATT ERR numbers look good as well.  The fundamental problem is that 70 dB input attenuator correction.  The input attenuator is not available, but some of the internal parts such as the 10 db, 20 dB, and 40 dB circuit pads are still orderable.

Hope this helps -

衰减器值来自一个不好的CAL AMPTD，它自我校准严重。
在我以前的幅度校准中，我有： - 40.50 0dB - 0.00 - 0.01 - -0.04 - 0.00 - 0.04 - -40.69 - -44.63 70dB



     以下为原文

  Attenuator values come from a bad CAL AMPTD, it is self calibrating badly.

In my previous amplitude calibration I had:

- 40.50 0dB
- 0.00
- 0.01
- -0.04
- 0.00
- 0.04
- -40.69
- -44.63 70dB

衰减器值来自一个不好的CAL AMPTD，它自我校准严重。
在我以前的幅度校准中，我有： - 40.50 0dB - 0.00 - 0.01 - -0.04 - 0.00 - 0.04 - -40.69 - -44.63 70dB



     以下为原文

  Attenuator values come from a bad CAL AMPTD, it is self calibrating badly.

In my previous amplitude calibration I had:

- 40.50 0dB
- 0.00
- 0.01
- -0.04
- 0.00
- 0.04
- -40.69
- -44.63 70dB

UPS！
我又跑了CAL AMPTD＆amp;
遇到了与开始时相同的问题：当测试到达Emi带宽时，它会永远运行。
- 删除所有数据（重置）。
- 测试CAL freq + CAL amptd，并再次保持在Emi带宽校准。
- 我运行cal freq＆amp;
保存。
- 我运行几次cal amptd，没有完成:( - 取消cal amptd后我屏幕上没有信号，按Preset，无变化。 - 关闭＆amp;在分析仪上，背景噪音再次出现，并显示“freq uncal”消息
如果没有运行cal amptd，300 MHz信号在-54dBm而不是-20dBm，我认为这是正常的，因为默认值给出130安培增益＆amp;校准时它超过200，无论如何它是0
＆amp; -10dBm参考。没有校准振幅（我现在不能）我有这些值： - 参考0 dBm - -54 dBm - 参考-10 dBm - -54 dBm - 参考-20 dBm - -32 dBm - 参考 -
30 dBm - -54 dBm - Ref -40 dBm - -32 dBm - Ref -50 dBm - -95 dBm - Ref -60 dBm - -64 dBm - Ref -70 dBm - -64 dBm我不知道这是否意味着
一些东西。



     以下为原文

  Ups!
I ran again the CAL AMPTD & had the same problem than in the beginning:
When test arrives to Emi bandwidth it runs for ever.

- Deleted all data (Reset).
- Tested CAL freq + CAL amptd and again it remains at Emi bandwidth calibration.
- I run the cal freq & save.
- I run several times cal amptd, do not finish :(
- After cancelling cal amptd I have no signal on screen, press Preset, no changes.
- Turn off & on the analyzer, background noise reappears with a message "freq uncal" for a couple of seconds.

Without running cal amptd the 300 MHz signal is at -54dBm instead of -20dBm, I think it is normal cause default values give 130 to amp gain & when calibrated it goes over 200, anyway it is for 0 & -10dBm reference.
Without calibrating amplitude (I can't now) I have these values:

- Ref 0 dBm - -54 dBm
- Ref -10 dBm - -54 dBm
- Ref -20 dBm - -32 dBm
- Ref -30 dBm - -54 dBm
- Ref -40 dBm - -32 dBm
- Ref -50 dBm - -95 dBm
- Ref -60 dBm - -64 dBm
- Ref -70 dBm - -64 dBm

I don't know if this means something.

嗨 - 我想你已经通过前面板和校准数据表收集了尽可能多的信息。
校准数据指向输入衰减器，因此应该是合格的。
由于间歇性结果，可能必须执行几个开关循环。
您是否有能够对间歇性输入衰减器进行故障排除的工具，我在之前的电子邮件中对此进行了概述？
您可以在300 MHz处进行资格认证，这是仪器进行频率和幅度校准的地方。
问候 -



     以下为原文

  Hi -

I think you’ve gleaned about as much information as you can via the front panel and the cal data table.  The cal data is pointing to the input attenuator, so it should be qualified.  Several switch cycles may have to be performed, due to the intermittent results.  Do you have the tools to be able to troubleshoot an intermittent input attenuator, which I outlined in my previous email?  You could do your qualifying at 300 MHz, which is where the instrument does the frequency and amplitude calibration. 

Regards -

您好tabbott，谢谢你的帮助。
我想我没有修理它的设备。
当你说“输入衰减器”时。
你的意思是“步进衰减器”？
如果是，部件号是33321-60032，是吗？
我一直在寻找这个，他们要求500美元+（二手）33321-60032看起来模型33321SC完全相同，可以找到约75-80美元，包括运费！
33321SC也有10针连接器，它是一个三节锁存衰减器，10分贝，20分贝和40分贝，直流4 GHz，15V。
那么，拜托，你能告诉我33321SC是否与33321-60032相同吗？
通过这种方式，我可以使用工作衰减器以及仅需75美元的维修零件。
看起来好得不真实:)焦急地等待快速回答:) :) :)



     以下为原文

  Hi tabbott, thank you for your help.

I think I don't have the equipment to repair it.

When you say "input attenuator". Do you mean "step attenuator"?
If yes the part number is 33321-60032, is that right?

I've been searching for this and they are asking $500+ (Used)
33321-60032 looks like the model 33321SC is exactly the same and can be found for just about $75-80 including shipping!!!
33321SC has 10 pins connector too, it is a three section latching attenuator, 10 db, 20 db and 40 db, DC 4 GHz, 15V.

So, please, Could you tell me if the 33321SC is the same than the 33321-60032?
This way I could have a working attenuator plus parts for repairs for just $75.
Looks too good to be true :)

Anxiously awaiting for a quick answer :) :) :)

我一直在搜索33321-60032＆amp;
33321SC，没有为33321-60032 :(两者外部相同，有相同的连接器和电缆的颜色看起来是相同的.33321-60032标记为24VDC而SC标记为15VDC我检查了我的所有连接器引脚
分析仪＆amp;没有任何电压高于15v。所以24VDC贴纸只是虚假信息:(订购了33321SC到希腊的一个人只需79.95美元，包括运费，希望在一周左右。看看它是否有效。
..



     以下为原文

  I've been searching information for the 33321-60032 & the 33321SC, nothing for the 33321-60032 :(
Both are externally equal, have same connector & cable's colors look to be the same.
The 33321-60032 is marked 24VDC while the SC is marked 15VDC
I checked all the connector pins of my analyzer & none of the voltages are higher than 15v.
So the 24VDC sticker is just false information :(
Ordered the 33321SC to a guy in Greece for $79.95 including shipping, hope to have it in about one week.
Will see if it works...

嗨 - 8590系列维修指南列出了部件号33321-60036作为8594E的输入衰减器。
我不确定33321SC或33321-60032的产品是什么。
问候 -



     以下为原文

  Hi -

The 8590 series service guide lists part number 33321-60036 as the input attenuator for the 8594E.  I’m not sure what product(s) the 33321SC or 33321-60032 goes into. 

Regards -

****！
我一直在寻找错误的部件号。
在搜索零件编号之前，我从分析仪上取下了衰减器，所以我可以很好地看到它是60036＆amp;
不是60032.为什么我要搜索60032？
不知道...... :(就像60032我一直无法找到有关60036的任何信息。我​​会在几天内收到33321SC，我会把它放进分析仪中，看看会发生什么:)



     以下为原文

  ****! I've been searching for the wrong part number.
I removed the attenuator from the analyzer before searching for the part number, so I can see perfectly well it is 60036 & not 60032.
Why did I search for the 60032? No idea... :(
Like for the 60032 I have been unable to find any information about the 60036.
I will receive the 33321SC in a few days, I'll put into the analyzer & will see what happens :)

嗨，我收到了33321SC＆amp;
它不工作:(我拆卸了两个（用一把螺丝刀很难拆下所有这些螺丝），33321SC有3个阶段，但60036是一个4步衰减器，而不是3.我可以看到4个加上4个继电器
/ coil图片：！http：//usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-1.jpg！图片：！http：//usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-2.jpg！图片：
！http：//usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-3.jpg！图片：！http：//usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-4.jpg！图片：！http：/
/usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-5.jpg！图片：！http：//usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-6.jpg！我刚刚进行了视觉检查，它看起来非常
好，继电器发出噪音:)一切似乎都没问题。
不知道如何进行操作检查。
所以我正以合理的价格搜索33321-60036，现在没找到。
你知道另一个与60036完全兼容的步进衰减器吗？
是否很难检查att是否正常工作？
谢谢。



     以下为原文

  Hi, I received the 33321SC & it is not working :(
I disassembled both (It is hard to remove all these screws with a slotted screwdriver), the 33321SC have 3 stages but the 60036 is a 4 steps attenuator, not 3.
I can see 4 att. plus 4 relays/coils

Image: !http://usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-1.jpg!
Image: !http://usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-2.jpg!
Image: !http://usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-3.jpg!
Image: !http://usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-4.jpg!
Image: !http://usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-5.jpg!
Image: !http://usuarios2.arsystel.com/vitete/33321-60036-6.jpg!

I just made a visual checking, it looks very good, the relays make noise :) Everything appears to be OK.
No idea how to make an operating check. So I'm searching for a 33321-60036 at a reasonable price, nothing found right now.

Do you know about another step attenuator fully compatible with the 60036?
Is it difficult to check if the att is working correctly?
Thank you.

我刚刚拿起了一个带有非常类似问题的8594E，它全部都在输入衰减器中。
首先，我有一个不好的10 dB步骤，必须更换。
看起来你的原始状态是原始的。
您可以检查我的测量（小心）所有衰减器的端接触点对地的电阻。
应该非常接近50欧姆，它应该是对称的（从任何一端开始相同的测量）。
其次是步进衰减器缺少O形环，阻止其中一个触点一直弯曲到衰减器组件。
触点由白色塑料推杆驱动，推杆穿过衰减器主体滑入孔中。
推杆的一端位于触头的槽中，另一端安装在其中一个线圈柱塞上的槽中。
在柱塞两侧的推杆周围应该有两个非常小的O形圈。
其中一个在我的身上丢失了，因此当线圈被驱动时，触点没有移动得足够远。
看看是否有任何缺失。
我最后用一根非常小心弯曲的30号线更换它，恰好是正确的厚度。



     以下为原文

  I just recently picked up an 8594E with a very similar issue, and it was all in the input attenuator.  First, I had a bad 10 dB step that had to be replaced.  Looks like yours is pristine, though.  You can check my measuring (carefully) the resistance of the end contact to ground for all of the attenuators.  Should be pretty close to 50 ohms, and it should be symmetrical (same measuremnt from either end).  Second was that there was a missing O ring i the step attenuator that prevented one of the contacts from flexing all the way up to the attenuator component.  The contacts are actuated with white plastic push rods that slide in holes through the attenuator body.  One end of the push rod sits in a slot in the contact, the other end fits into a slot on one of the coil plungers.  There should be two very small O rings around the push rod on either side of the plunger.  One of them was missing on mine, and as a result the contact did not move far enough when the coil was actuated.  Take a look and see if any of those are missing.  I ended up replacing it with a very carefuly bent piece of 30 gauge wire that happened to be exactly the right thickness.

亚历克斯你好，谢谢你回答:)我把整个衰减器拆开了，O形圈还行，我用20倍双筒放大镜仔细检查了一切，没有发现问题。
我还购买了另一台60036衰减器＆amp;
问题大致相同。
这给了我0,60和0的坏价值。
70 dBm，也必须运行几次amptd通过“Emi bandwith”。
当它经常通过时，我有一个空白的信号屏幕。
我对衰减器唯一剩下的事情就是检查阻抗，但需要两步。
给我类似的结果我认为这不是问题。
现在我花了大约270美元什么都没有:(



     以下为原文

  Hello Alex, thank you for answering :)
I disassembled the entire attenuator, the o-rings are OK, I inspected carefully everything with a 20x binocular loupe, no problems found.
I also purchased another 60036 attenuator & the problem is about the same.
It is giving me bad values at 0, 60 & 70 dBm, also have to run several times the amptd to pass the "Emi bandwith". When it passes often I have a blank signal screen.
The only remaining thing for me to do with the attenuator is check the impedance but with two step att. giving me similar results I'm thinking this is not the problem.
Right now I spend about $270 for nothing :(