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所有,我有一个由聚酰亚胺制成的柔性电路(er = 3.3到3.5),我想用ADS2011布局确认单端微带线和差分偶数/奇数模式走线的阻抗。
我已将Gerber文件加载到工具中,我可以设置多个端口。 我的目标是在存在交叉阴影平面(非实心)的情况下提取单端/差分阻抗。 柔性电路在动态环境中使用,并且它不能是实心平面参考,因为它会使其疲劳,并最终随着时间的推移而失效(裂纹迹线等)。 我想调整走线和交叉影线参数以达到90欧姆差分阻抗和50欧姆单端。 我将在两种情况下分解问题 - 差分和单端。 我想为差分设置一个案例,并为偶数和奇数模式提取迹线的阻抗。 我相信这在ADS中是小菜一碟,我只是不知道如何设置它。 我知道我可以转换阻抗Z11 = 50 *(1 + S(1,1))/(1-S(1,1))。 从这里我如何得到奇数和偶数模式? 如何对交叉影线进行参数化,以便我可以改变一些参数并查看阻抗变化? 我真的很感激任何帮助。 我挖了我的旧书,我重新找到偶数= Z11 / 2 odd = 2 * Z11的阻抗。 但是,我只需要知道我需要在跟踪上放置多少个端口。 对于差分情况,我想这是一个双端口测量,但是地面参考怎么样? 我会把以下端口P1,P2分别对一端进行差分对。 P3,P4到另一端,地面怎么样? 它只是P5吗? 然后我将其导出到原理图,并添加地面,因为我无法在布局中添加地面? 任何帮助将不胜感激。 这是我通过实验和FCC测试得到的经典案例,但我没有模拟模型来预测这一点而不需要迭代flex。 谢谢rjrodrig 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 All, I have a Flex circuit made out of Polyimide (er =3.3 to 3.5), I want to confirm the impedance of single ended microstrip and differential even/odd mode traces using ADS2011 Layout. I have loaded the Gerber files into the tool, and I can setup multiple ports. My goal is to extract the single ended/diff impedance in the presence of a cross-hatched plane (not solid). The flex circuit is used in a dynamic environment, and it cannot be a solid plane reference as it will fatigue it, and eventually fail over time (cracked traces etc). I want to adjust the traces, and cross-hatch parameters to hit 90 ohms differential impedance, and 50 ohms single ended. I will split the problem in two cases -- the differential and single ended. I want to setup a case for the differential, and extract the impedance of the traces for even and odd mode. I am sure this is a piece of cake in ADS, I just don't know how to set it up. I know I can convert the impedance Z11 = 50*(1+S(1,1))/(1-S(1,1)). From here how do I get odd and even mode? How do I parametrize the cross hatch so I can vary the some parameters and look at the impedance changes? I would really appreciate it any help. I have dug up my old books and I recapped the impedance for even=Z11/2 odd=2*Z11. However, I just need to know how many ports I need to put on my traces. For the differential case, I imagine this is a two port measurement, but what about the ground reference? I would put the following ports P1,P2 to diff pair one end. P3,P4 to the other end, what about ground? Is it just P5? Do I then export this to schematic, and add ground since I can't add ground in Layout? Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is a classical case I have gotten around experimentally and through FCC testing, but I don't have a simulation model to predict this without iterating the flex. Thanks rjrodrig |
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***5 发表于 2019-1-8 15:57 我没有登录。 我会尝试注册,但我们不再进行合同维护。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 I don't have a login for it. I will try registering but we are no longer on contract maintenance. |
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***5 发表于 2019-1-8 15:57 是否可以获得该文档的PDF? 我无法访问该网站 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 Is it possible to get a PDF of the document? I could not get access to the website |
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理解.... :( 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 Understood.... :( |
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> {quote:title = rjrodrig写道:} {quote}>但是,我只需要知道我需要在跟踪上放多少个端口。
对于差分情况,我想这是一个双端口测量,但是地面参考怎么样? 我会把以下端口P1,P2分别对一端进行差分对。 P3,P4到另一端,地面怎么样? 它只是P5吗? 不,P5还不够。 显然,您需要对显式的绘制地平面进行建模,并且不能使用边界条件。 并且这个接地导体是导体,就像信号导体一样。 它需要*两端*的端口,以便电流可以流过该导体。 因此差分线需要6个端口。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 > {quote:title=rjrodrig wrote:}{quote} > However, I just need to know how many ports I need to put on my traces. For the differential case, I imagine this is a two port measurement, but what about the ground reference? I would put the following ports P1,P2 to diff pair one end. P3,P4 to the other end, what about ground? Is it just P5? No, P5 is not enough. Obviously, you need to model an explicit, drawn ground plane and cannot use the boundary condition. And this ground conductor is a conductor, just like the signal conductor. It needs ports on *both* ends, so that current can flow through that conductor. So you need 6 ports for the differential line. |
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> {quote:title = rjrodrig写道:} {quote}>我做了P1,P2差分和P3,P4差分。
P5和P6端口怎么样? 我将该线路模拟为6端口,涵盖所有可能的模式,然后在原理图级别定义公共/差分模式。 对于原理图,要创建差分信号,您可以使用“系统无源”调色板中的理想巴伦。 ~~关于地面港口的位置:你为什么把港口放在外边界? 我希望接地引脚/端口更靠近信号引脚/端口。 ~~关于端口校准,不确定这是否适用。 由于信号线部分位于阴影线的地面上,我预计端口扩展(对于cal标准)将部分覆盖阴影线,部分没有接地。 不确定该校准是否会带来有意义的结果。 我会仔细检查测试结果与端口校准禁用的模拟。编辑:volker_muehlhaus于2013年11月5日下午2:44 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 > {quote:title=rjrodrig wrote:}{quote} > I made P1,P2 differential and P3,P4 differential. what about the port P5 and P6? I would simulate the line as a 6-port, which covers all possible modes, and later define common/differential mode at schematic level. For the schematic, to create a differential signal, you can use an ideal balun from "System-Passive" palette. ~~ Regarding the ground port placement: why did you place the port at the outer boundary? I would expect that the ground pins/ports are located closer to the signal pins/ports. ~~ Regarding port calibration, not sure if that is applicable here. With signal lines that are partially over the hatched ground, I would expect that the port extensions (for cal standards) will be partially over hatched ground and partially without ground. Not sure if that calibration will provid meaningful results. I would double check test results against a simulation with port cal disabled. Edited by: volker_muehlhaus on Nov 5, 2013 2:44 PM |
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lmksa 发表于 2019-1-8 17:24 感谢您的答复。 “关于接地端口放置:为什么将端口放在外边界?我希望接地引脚/端口更靠近信号引脚/端口。” 我试图在真实设备中模拟我的情况,因为我不知道它有显着差异。 我当然可以将地线与垫子对齐。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 Thank you for the reply. "Regarding the ground port placement: why did you place the port at the outer boundary? I would expect that the ground pins/ports are located closer to the signal pins/ports." I was trying to simulate my case in the real device, as I didn't know it made a significant difference. I can certainly place the ground line up with the pads. |
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> {quote:title = rjrodrig写道:} {quote}>问题:如何提取线路阻抗?
我将答案分成多个部分。 在随附的屏幕截图中,您可以看到一种计算线路阻抗的可能方法。 当线长(相位)是90°的倍数时,它会失败。 稍后,我将添加另一个帖子,将其应用于您的行。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 > {quote:title=rjrodrig wrote:}{quote} > Question: How do I then extract the line impedance? I'll divide the answer into multiple parts. In the attached screenshot, you see one possible method for calculating a line impedance. It fails when the line length (phase) is a multiple of 90°. Later, I will add another post where this is applied to your lines. 附件
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我不知道你的基于EM的测试用例的答案,所以我建议你对你的评估方法进行健全性检查:不要评估你的EM数据,而是在你设置Zeven / Zodd的地方放置一个理想的CLIN元素并尝试将其作为
你的提取结果。 关于Zoe和Zoo定义,这是理论上广泛使用的(线计算器或耦合线模型)。 这可能令人困惑,因为我们在现实生活中处理的是(+)和( - )之间的差分100欧姆负载的传输线,理论上将其称为50欧姆动物园的线路。 两者都是等价的,你只需要定义你的意思阻抗。编辑:volker_muehlhaus于2013年11月6日下午3:00 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 I don't know the answer to your EM-based testcase, so I would suggest a sanity check of your evaluation method: instead of evaluating your EM data, place an ideal CLIN element where you set Zeven/Zodd and try to get this as your extraction results. Regarding the Zoe and Zoo definitions, this is what is widely used in theory (line calculators, or coupled line models). It might be confusing because what we deal with in real life is a transmission line for a differential 100 Ohm load between (+) and (-), where theory would call this a line with 50 Ohm Zoo. Both is equivalent, you just need to define what impedance you mean. Edited by: volker_muehlhaus on Nov 6, 2013 3:00 PM |
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小蜜蜂12346 发表于 2019-1-8 17:35 它最终模拟了,我把它作为ADS原理图区域的符号。 我已将S参数TERM端口连接到迹线的两端(diff模式),并接地到网格接地的另外两端。 现在如何在出现接地时提取差分偶数/奇数阻抗? 你知道我可以使用哪些方程式或内置函数来提取阻抗吗? 谢谢你的帮助,问候,rjrodrig 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 It finally simulated, and I have it as a symbol in the schematic area of ADS. I have attached an S-parameter TERM ports to both ends of the traces (diff mode), and ground to the other two ends of the meshed ground. How do I now extract the differential Even/odd impedance in the presence of the hatch ground? Do you know which equations or built-in function I could use to extract the impedance? Thank you for your help, Regards, rjrodrig |
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lmksa 发表于 2019-1-8 17:24 > {quote:title = volker_muehlhaus写道:} {quote} >> {quote:title = rjrodrig写道:} {quote} >>我制作了P1,P2差分和P3,P4差分。 P5和P6端口怎么样? >>我将该线路模拟为6端口,涵盖所有可能的模式,然后在原理图级别定义公共/差分模式。 我想跟进我之前的评论,我建议使用6个端口模拟EM,并在原理图级别分配地面。 我注意到,对于我的测试用例,Momentum中的自适应扫描需要更多的频率用于6端口配置,而4端口仿真则将P5和P6指定为接地参考。 所以我们最好使用4端口配置。 附带的屏幕截图显示了如何分配接地引脚。 请注意,每个接地引脚P5和P6都分配给两个端口。 这种重复的映射是通过拖放来实现的。 引脚从一个( - )下降到另一个( - )。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 > {quote:title=volker_muehlhaus wrote:}{quote} > > {quote:title=rjrodrig wrote:}{quote} > > I made P1,P2 differential and P3,P4 differential. what about the port P5 and P6? > > I would simulate the line as a 6-port, which covers all possible modes, and later define common/differential mode at schematic level. I want to follow up on my earlier comment, where I suggested to EM simulated with 6 ports, and assign the grounds at schematic level. I noticed that for my testcase, the adaptive sweep in Momentum required much more frequencies for the 6-port configuration, compared to 4-port simulation with P5 and P6 assigned as ground references. So we better use the 4-port configuration. The attached screenshot shows how to assign the ground pins. Notice that each of the ground pins P5 and P6 is assigned to two ports. This duplicate mapping is done by drag & drop of the pin from one (-) to the other (-). 附件
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lmksa 发表于 2019-1-8 18:17 我尝试了你的建议,它确实加快了模拟时间。 在原理图中,我保持了与之前相同的连接(common和diff),我得到了与Hyperlynx预测相似的结果。 Hyperlynx预测为104.8欧姆,ADS模拟收敛到105.68差分阻抗。 继续困扰我的一件事是符号。 对我来说奇数模式是差分,而普通模式是偶数。 我认为差分为一个端子0而另一个为普通的,我认为0或两者都是1.因此对于USB差分对的情况,在走线上需要90欧姆的“差分”阻抗; 将此与我的结果联系起来我会说我得到了105欧姆的差分,接近90欧姆,但由于信号是在奇数模式下驱动的(一条迹线1,另一条是0),说阻抗相对于52.8欧姆。 在一条痕迹上地面。 我认为在一个完美平衡的系统中,接地的迹线看起来像45欧姆,接近我得到的52欧姆? 我的陈述是否正确? 我试图把我所有的松散的结束,并一劳永逸地钉这个。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 I tried your suggestion and it did speed up the simulation time. In schematic, I kept the same connections as before (common and diff) and I got the same results similar to what Hyperlynx predicts. Hyperlynx predicted 104.8 ohms and the simulation in ADS converged to 105.68 differential impedance. One thing that continues to bother me is the notation. To me odd mode was the differential and Common mode is the even. I think of differential as one terminal 0 and the other 1 where as common I think both 0 or both 1. So for the case of an USB differential pair that requires a 90 ohms "Differential" impedance on the traces; relating this to my results I would say I got 105 ohms differential which is close to 90 ohms, but since the signal is driven in odd mode (one trace 1 and the other has a 0) that say the impedance is really 52.8 ohms relative to ground on one trace. I would think in a perfectly balanced system the trace to ground would look like 45 ohms which is close to the 52 ohms I got? Is my statement correct? I am trying to tie all my loose ends and nail this one once and for all. |
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小蜜蜂12346 发表于 2019-1-8 18:35 > {quote:title = rjrodrig写道:} {quote}>继续困扰我的一件事是符号。 对我来说奇数模式是差分,而普通模式是偶数。 这很好,但你需要知道Zoe和Zoo的定义方式与我们每天的措辞不同。 因此,您可能遇到某人使用其他定义的情况。 确保你们两个都是一样的。 > {quote:title = rjrodrig写道:} {quote}>我认为差分是一个终端0而另一个是普通的,我认为0或两者都是1.>因此对于USB差分对的情况需要一个 走线上90欧姆“差分”阻抗; 将此与我的结果联系起来我会说我得到了105欧姆的差分,接近90欧姆,但由于信号是在奇数模式下驱动的(一条迹线1,另一条是0),说阻抗相对于52.8欧姆。 在一条痕迹上地面。 我认为在一个完美平衡的系统中,接地的迹线看起来像45欧姆,接近我得到的52欧姆? 我的陈述是否正确? 我试图把我所有的松散的结束,并一劳永逸地钉这个。 好吧,我想我明白你迷路的地方。 你担心+ 0.5 / -0.5对比1/0? 但我知道信号是真正的差分,并不是两条线中的一条始终处于0V状态? 如果它只是DC偏移,它对线路阻抗没有影响。 事实上,105欧姆是您感兴趣的值.Zoe / Zoo的定义问题是定义问题,而不是DC偏移。 它们只测量端子之间的中间电位阻抗,而不是测量端子之间的电阻。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 > {quote:title=rjrodrig wrote:}{quote} > One thing that continues to bother me is the notation. To me odd mode was the differential and Common mode is the even. That's fine, but you need to be aware that Zoe and Zoo are defined in that special way that is different from our every day wording. So you might run into cases where someone uses that other definition. Make sure you both mean the same. > {quote:title=rjrodrig wrote:}{quote} > I think of differential as one terminal 0 and the other 1 where as common I think both 0 or both 1. > So for the case of an USB differential pair that requires a 90 ohms "Differential" impedance on the traces; relating this to my results I would say I got 105 ohms differential which is close to 90 ohms, but since the signal is driven in odd mode (one trace 1 and the other has a 0) that say the impedance is really 52.8 ohms relative to ground on one trace. I would think in a perfectly balanced system the trace to ground would look like 45 ohms which is close to the 52 ohms I got? Is my statement correct? I am trying to tie all my loose ends and nail this one once and for all. Ok, I think I understand where you get lost. You are worried about +0.5/-0.5 versus 1 / 0 ? But I understand that the signal is truely differential, and it's not that one of the two lines is at 0V all the time? If it's just that DC offset, it has no effect on line impedance. So indeed, the 105 ohm is the value that you are interested in. The definition issue with Zoe/Zoo is a definition thing, and not about that DC offset. They just measure impedance to mid-potential between the terminals, instead of measuring between the terminals. |
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非常感谢你澄清这个问题。
我在一个交叉阴影的网格上运行差分对,我能够根据地面阴影线参数调整走线宽度。 在我的例子中,我有25密耳的间隙45度角,5密耳的痕迹包括舱口。 为了产生大约90欧姆的差分,我制作了11m宽的痕迹,1盎司的铜,以及从痕迹到痕迹的5密耳间隙。 我产生了94欧姆的差分。 我使用的材料是聚酰亚胺er = 3.5。 感谢您的帮助。 对此,我真的非常感激。 以上来自于谷歌翻译 以下为原文 Thank you very much for clarifying the issue. I ran the differential pair over a cross-hatched mesh and I was able to tune the trace widths based on the ground hatch parameters. In my example I had 25 mils gap 45deg angle, and 5 mils traces comprising the hatch. To yield approximately 90 ohms differential, I made my traces 11mils wide, 1 oz of copper, and 5 mils gap from trace to trace. I yielded 94 ohms differential. The material I used is polyimide er = 3.5. Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it. |
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