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[问答] 怎么使用HP8753D VNA验证谐振频率
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我正在使用单极天线并尝试使用HP8753D VNA验证其谐振频率。
我正在使用的过程如下所述:1。使用S11-1端口校准方法校准VNA。
2.使用同轴电缆将天线连接到VNA,并检查频率范围内的S11参数图。
3.对于7.6厘米的长度,我应该有大约1 GHz的谐振频率,但是我也会在更高的频率(大约3.5 GHz)下获得更大的下降。
根据逻辑,我应该只在谐振频率下降。
请告知上述情况背后可能的原因。
谢谢...!!

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  I am using a monopole antenna and trying to verIFy its resonant frequency using an HP8753D VNA. The process I am using is as explained below:

1. Calibrate the VNA using S11-1 port calibration method.
2. Connect the antenna using a co-axial cable to the VNA and check the S11 parameter graph over the frequency range.  
3. For a length of 7.6 cms, I should have resonant frequency around 1 GHz, however I am also getting larger dips at higher frequencies (at around 3.5 GHz). As per the logic I should only have a dip at the resonant frequency.  

Please aDVIse what could be the possible reason behind the above mentioned situation.

Thanks...!!  
0
2019-3-5 07:33:16   评论 分享淘帖 邀请回答
27个回答
天线响应非常复杂。
很有可能你正在寻找天线的1/4波长第一响应,在3.5 GHZ时,你也会看到3/4波长响应,这也是许多天线结构的有效过模频率。
并且,地平面效应可以对视在频率产生非常强烈的影响(高达50%或更多)。
外导体的影响会产生寄生响应,如果天线是1/4波鞭状,则应使用接地平面。
这就是为什么需要非常昂贵的天线测试范围来进行精确测量。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Antenna responses are notoriously complicated.  Very likley you are looking for the 1/4 wavelength first response of the antenna, at 3.5 GHZ, you would also be seeing the 3/4 wavelength response, which is also a valid overmode frequency for many antenna structures.

And, ground plane effects can have a very strong influence (up to 50% or more) on the apparent frequency.  The effect of the outer conductor can generate spurious responses, and a ground plane should be used if the antenna is of a 1/4 wave whip type.

This is why very expensive antenna test ranges are needed for precise measurement.
2019-3-5 07:44:11 评论

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脑洞大赛9 发表于 2019-3-5 07:44
天线响应非常复杂。
很有可能你正在寻找天线的1/4波长第一响应,在3.5 GHZ时,你也会看到3/4波长响应,这也是许多天线结构的有效过模频率。
并且,地平面效应可以对视在频率产生非常强烈的影响(高达50%或更多)。

由于我们使用网络分析仪估计天线的调谐频率,因此辐射电阻和抗损耗的概念是否与在不同频率下显示的多次下降有关。
此外,为了交叉检查,我们可以去测量S11和S21参数。
对于调谐频率,我们应该观察到该频率的下降(在S11的情况下),而我们应该观察该频率的峰值(对于S21)。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Whether the concepts of radiative resistance and loss resistance have got anything to do with the multiple dips being shown at different frequencies, since we are using a network analyzer to estimate the tuning frequency of the antenna.

Moreover, in order to cross check can we go for measuring both S11 and S21 parameters. For a tuning frequency, we should observe a dip (in case of S11) at that frequency whereas we should observe a peak (for S21) at that frequency.
2019-3-5 07:57:05 评论

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kiifwerw 发表于 2019-3-5 07:57
由于我们使用网络分析仪估计天线的调谐频率,因此辐射电阻和抗损耗的概念是否与在不同频率下显示的多次下降有关。
此外,为了交叉检查,我们可以去测量S11和S21参数。
对于调谐频率,我们应该观察到该频率的下降(在S11的情况下),而我们应该观察该频率的峰值(对于S21)。

> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>辐射电阻和抗损耗的概念是否与在不同频率下显示的多次下降有关,因为我们使用网络分析仪估计调谐频率
天线
>>此外,为了交叉检查,我们可以去测量S11和S21参数。
对于调谐频率,我们应该观察到该频率的下降(在S11的情况下),而我们应该观察该频率的峰值(对于S21)。
您需要定义要测量的内容。
如果有人对我说天线被调谐到F的频率,那么我认为它们意味着它在F处产生共振。这就是定义意味着输入阻抗纯粹是真实的。
那可能是也可能不是| S11 |的地方
骤降。
它经常在一个设计合理的天线中。
测量天线的合理测量位置,必须考虑电缆长度的影响,因为这会改变相位。
因此,更容易在电缆末端进行校准,并将其拧到天线上。
您要测量S21的唯一方法是使用另一个测试天线。
在这一点上出现了一系列全新的并发症。
同样,您需要定义要测量的内容。
对于BOTH天线,输入阻抗,自由空间路径损耗,辐射方向图,增益和实现的增益都会随频率而变化。
我怀疑你对你想测量的东西有点困惑。
您能否向我们提供有关天线的更多详细信息,以及您想要做什么?
请注意,8753系列上的长电缆存在问题,如果使用长电缆(这对于天线测量非常常见),则需要将扫描速度降低到低于仪器自动设置的速度。
戴夫。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  > {quote:title=saviour2009 wrote:}{quote}
> Whether the concepts of radiative resistance and loss resistance have got anything to do with the multiple dips being shown at different frequencies, since we are using a network analyzer to estimate the tuning frequency of the antenna.

> Moreover, in order to cross check can we go for measuring both S11 and S21 parameters. For a tuning frequency, we should observe a dip (in case of S11) at that frequency whereas we should observe a peak (for S21) at that frequency.

You need to define what you want to measure. If someone said to me an antenna was tuned to a frequency of F, then I would think they mean it resonates at F. That be definition means the input impedance is purely real. That may or may not be where the |S11| dips. It quite often is in a reasonably well designed antenna. Measuring where the antenna is reasonate measure you must take into account the effect of the cable length, as that will alter the phase. Hence it is easier to calibrate on the end of the cable, and screw that to the antenna. 

The only way you are going to measure S21 is to use another test antenna. At which point a whole new set of complications arrise. Again, you would need to define what you what to measure. Input impedance, free space path loss, radiation pattern, gain and realized gain would all vary with frequency for BOTH antennas. 

I suspect you are a bit confused about what you want to measure. Can you give us more details about the antenna, and precisely what you want to do? 

Be aware there's an issue with long cables on the 8753 series, and that if you use long cables, which is quite common for antenna measurements, you need to slow the sweep speed down below that which is automatically set by the intrument. 

Dave.
2019-3-5 08:07:50 评论

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kiifwerw 发表于 2019-3-5 07:57
由于我们使用网络分析仪估计天线的调谐频率,因此辐射电阻和抗损耗的概念是否与在不同频率下显示的多次下降有关。
此外,为了交叉检查,我们可以去测量S11和S21参数。
对于调谐频率,我们应该观察到该频率的下降(在S11的情况下),而我们应该观察该频率的峰值(对于S21)。

> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>辐射电阻和抗损耗的概念是否与在不同频率下显示的多次下降有关,因为我们使用网络分析仪估计调谐频率
天线
>>此外,为了交叉检查,我们可以去测量S11和S21参数。
对于调谐频率,我们应该观察到该频率的下降(在S11的情况下),而我们应该观察该频率的峰值(对于S21)。
是的,你可以看看S21和S11,S21使用某种探测天线。
但根据我的经验,你不会在S21峰值的同一点发现S11倾角。
如果VNA的Z0与天线不匹配,S11下降将不会达到预期的频率。
不幸的是,较旧的VNA不允许阻抗转换,因此很难对此进行测试。
我在本书第5章(第5.5节)末尾讨论了很多这方面的内容,以及一些有用的数据:http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1119979552.html

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  > {quote:title=saviour2009 wrote:}{quote}
> Whether the concepts of radiative resistance and loss resistance have got anything to do with the multiple dips being shown at different frequencies, since we are using a network analyzer to estimate the tuning frequency of the antenna.

> Moreover, in order to cross check can we go for measuring both S11 and S21 parameters. For a tuning frequency, we should observe a dip (in case of S11) at that frequency whereas we should observe a peak (for S21) at that frequency.

Yes, you can look at both S21 and S11, with S21 using some kind of probe antenna.   But it is my experience that you will not find S11 dips at the same point as S21 peaks.  And the S11 dips will not be at the expected frequencies if the Z0 of the VNA is not matched to the antenna.  Unfortunately, older VNAs did not allow impedance transformation so it is difficult to test this.  

I discussed a great deal about this at the end of Chapter 5 (section 5.5) of my book, along with several useful figures:

http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1119979552.html
2019-3-5 08:18:47 评论

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脑洞大赛9 发表于 2019-3-5 08:18
> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>辐射电阻和抗损耗的概念是否与在不同频率下显示的多次下降有关,因为我们使用网络分析仪估计调谐频率
天线
>>此外,为了交叉检查,我们可以去测量S11和S21参数。

谢谢戴夫和乔尔博士。
我肯定会参考建议的阅读材料。
但是,我遇到了一个新问题。
我对网络分析仪的世界有点新意,也许这也是其中一个原因,我在与它们合作时遇到了问题。
但我想,如果没有问题,就无法了解工具或其他东西。
无论如何,这个新问题与保存软盘上的数据有关,适用于HP8753D VNA。
我正在校准VNA并将校准状态保存在其中一个寄存器中。
现在,当我重新启动VNA时,我可以将数据保存到软盘中并关闭校准。
但是当我回想起校准状态并尝试将数据保存到软盘时,它会向我显示以下消息:“等待清理扫描”然后它会停留在“保存:数据阵列”上。
并且网络分析仪卡住或挂起,直到再次预设VNA。
不确定背后的原因。
请指教。
谢谢..!!
编辑:saviour2009于2013年6月19日4:26 AM编辑:saviour2009于2013年6月19日4:27 AM

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Thanks Dave and Dr. Joel. I will definitely refer the suggested reading.

However, I have come across a new issue. I am a bit new to the world of network analyzers and perhaps that is one of the reasons, I am facing issues while working with them. But I guess, one can't learn about a tool or something else without having issues with that.

Anyways, this new problem is related to saving data on a floppy disk, for HP8753D VNA. I am calibrating the VNA and saving the calibration state in one of the registers. Now, when I restart the VNA, I can save the data into a floppy disk with calibration off. But when I recall the calibration state and try to save the data to the floppy disk, it shows me the following messages:
"Waiting for Clean Sweep" and then it stucks on "Saving: Data Array". And the network analyzers gets stuck or hangs until the VNA is preset again.

Not sure of the reason behind. Please advise. 

Thanks..!!

Edited by: saviour2009 on Jun 19, 2013 4:26 AM

Edited by: saviour2009 on Jun 19, 2013 4:27 AM
2019-3-5 08:31:13 评论

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kiifwerw 发表于 2019-3-5 08:31
谢谢戴夫和乔尔博士。
我肯定会参考建议的阅读材料。
但是,我遇到了一个新问题。

> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>谢谢戴夫和乔尔博士。
我肯定会参考建议的阅读材料。
没问题。
您需要正确定义您的问题,因为没有它,您实际上是在浪费时间进行测量,尽管它会让您获得使用8753D的一些经验。
>但是,我遇到了一个新问题。
我对网络分析仪的世界有点新意,也许这也是其中一个原因,我在与它们合作时遇到了问题。
但我想,如果没有问题,就无法了解工具或其他东西。
>>无论如何,这个新问题与保存软盘上的数据有关,适用于HP8753D VNA。
我正在校准VNA并将校准状态保存在其中一个寄存器中。
现在,当我重新启动VNA时,我可以将数据保存到软盘中并关闭校准。
但是当我回想起校准状态并尝试将数据保存到软盘时,它会向我显示以下消息:我不这样做。
将校准状态保存在其中一个寄存器中,然后在进行任何测量之前调用它。
然后你可以将数据保存到软盘上,尽管从GPIB总线上获取数据可能更容易长期。
根据我所犯的错误或我见过其他人所犯的错误,还有一些使用8753的技巧。
1)通常在通电时,它将假设连接器为7 mm APC7。
在校准到您使用的任何连接器时,请务必更改。
我假设您不会使用APC7连接器作为天线。
2)确保输入用作校准的校准套件的容量,除非您有一个固件中的校准套件。
确保你知道它所期望的校准套件。
3)校准8753D时,如果要求OPEN(M),*不*表示男性标准,而是女性标准!
“M”指的是测试端口的性别,而不是校准标准的性别。
4)如果你有一个85032B型N cal套件,这是常用于那个VNA的,请注意你需要一个扩针用于公针,它是女性开放标准的一部分。
这往往会迷失,如果你没有,你的结果将完全搞砸。
>“等待清洁扫描”然后它停留在“保存:数据阵列”。
并且网络分析仪卡住或挂起,直到再次预设VNA。
Joel更有可能知道错误消息 - 我相信他参与了8753系列的设计。
但我认为你以后对未校准数据和调用校准数据的想法是错误的。
>不确定背后的原因。
请指教。
试试我说的话。
然后,当然您可以通过RTFM找出错误消息的含义。
戴夫。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  > {quote:title=saviour2009 wrote:}{quote}
> Thanks Dave and Dr. Joel. I will definitely refer the suggested reading.

No problem. You need to define your problem properly, as without that, you are virtually wasting your time making measurements, although it will gain you some experience using the 8753D.

> However, I have come across a new issue. I am a bit new to the world of network analyzers and perhaps that is one of the reasons, I am facing issues while working with them. But I guess, one can't learn about a tool or something else without having issues with that.

> Anyways, this new problem is related to saving data on a floppy disk, for HP8753D VNA. I am calibrating the VNA and saving the calibration state in one of the registers. Now, when I restart the VNA, I can save the data into a floppy disk with calibration off. But when I recall the calibration state and try to save the data to the floppy disk, it shows me the following messages:

I would not do it that way. Save the calibration state in one of the registers, then recall that before making any measurements. Then you can save data to a floppy, though it is probably easier long term to get the data down the GPIB bus. 

A couple more tips for using the 8753, based on errors I have made, or errors I have seen others make. 

1) Usually at power up it will assume the connectors are 7 mm APC7. Make sure to change that when calibrating to whatever connector you use. I assume you will not be using APC7 connectors for your antenna. 

2) Make sure you enter the contants for the cal kit you are using as a user calibration, unless you have one of the cal kits in firmware. Make sure you know what cal kit it expects. 

3) When calibrating the 8753D, if it asks for OPEN(M), that does *not* mean a male standard, but a female one! The "M" refers to the sex of the test port, not of the calibration standard. 

4) If you have an 85032B type N cal kit, which is quite commonly used with that VNA, be aware you need an extender for the male pin, which comes as part of the female open standard. That tends to get lost, and if you don't have it, your results will be totally screwed up. 

> "Waiting for Clean Sweep" and then it stucks on "Saving: Data Array". And the network analyzers gets stuck or hangs until the VNA is preset again.

Joel is more likely to know about the error messages - I believe he was involved in the design of the 8753 series. But I think your idea of taking data uncalibrated and recalling cal data later is wrong. 

> Not sure of the reason behind. Please advise. 

Try what I said. Then of course then you can RTFM to find out what the error message means.  

Dave.
2019-3-5 08:41:55 评论

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60user7 发表于 2019-3-5 08:41
> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>谢谢戴夫和乔尔博士。
我肯定会参考建议的阅读材料。
没问题。

嗨,戴夫,我再次尝试,并按照你在回复中提到的一些要点。
我注意到VNA花费了大量时间来保存.S2P格式的数据。
就像我的情况一样,我选择了“点数= 201”,将这些数据以.S2P格式保存到软盘上差不多花了大约9分钟。
在我之前的案例中,提到的点数是801,因此我认为它花费了更长的时间,我们不知道为什么VNA花了这么多时间来保存数据。
此外,这次我不知何故离开屏幕显示为史密斯圆图,我可以在VNA屏幕的左上角看到所有S参数被逐个调用并保存在软盘上。
在前面的例子中,我没有那么多的可见性,也许由于这个原因,我很困惑数据是如何通过软盘存储的。
但我现在很清楚。
另一个短暂的疑问,我有85033C校准套件和我一起用于VNA校准。
现在,当我开始校准时,我需要选择3.5 mmC或3.5 mmD的套件类型。
我很困惑选择哪一个。
截至目前,我选择的是3.5 mmC。
我对么 ?
谢谢

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Hi Dave,

I tried again and followed some of the points you had mentioned in your reply. I noticed that the VNA is taking a good amount of time to save the data in the .S2P format. Like in my case I selected the "Number of points = 201" and it was nearly taking around 9 minutes to save this data onto the floppy disk in .S2P format.

In my earlier cases, the number of points were mentioned to be 801 and hence I assume it was taking much longer time with us no clue why was the VNA taking so much time to save data.

Also, this time somehow I left the screen display as Smith chart and I could see in the top left part of the VNA screen that all the S parameters are being called one by one and saved over the floppy disk. In the earlier case, I didn't have this much visibility and perhaps due to this reason I was confused how the data was getting stored over the floppy disk. But I am clear now.

Another short doubt, I have 85033C calibration kit with me and I am using this for VNA calibration. Now, when I start the calibration I need to select the kit type either 3.5 mmC or 3.5 mmD. I am confused as to which one to select. As of now, I am selecting 3.5 mmC. Am I correct ?

Thanks
2019-3-5 08:55:18 评论

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kiifwerw 发表于 2019-3-5 08:55
嗨,戴夫,我再次尝试,并按照你在回复中提到的一些要点。
我注意到VNA花费了大量时间来保存.S2P格式的数据。
就像我的情况一样,我选择了“点数= 201”,将这些数据以.S2P格式保存到软盘上差不多花了大约9分钟。

> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>嗨Dave,>>我再次尝试并按照你在回复中提到的一些要点。
我注意到VNA花费了大量时间来保存.S2P格式的数据。
就像我的情况一样,我选择了“点数= 201”,将这些数据以.S2P格式保存到软盘上差不多花了大约9分钟。
我不知道8753D支持以.S2P格式保存。
我有一个非常古老的8753A(3 GHz)和一个稍微旧的8720D(20 GHz),但它们都不支持以.s2p格式保存。
我注意到8753D在2005年和8720D到2004之间得到了支持,所以也许惠普在8753系列的更高版本中添加了.2SP格式。
我相信虽然8720和8753分享了一些代码。
但我的固件版本基本上将我的机器升级到8720ES,所以我有点惊讶于8753D支持以.s2p格式保存。
但也许确实如此。
保存.s2p文件9分钟似乎很疯狂。
使用我自己写的软件,通常需要大约30秒才能将所有4个S参数保存到GPIB总线上的.s2p文件中。
如果您愿意,欢迎索取一份副本,但有一些“陷阱”*它只适用于National Instruments GPIB板。
*它只能在Unix和Linux系统上运行*它仅在运行Solaris 10的8710D上在SPARC处理器上进行了测试。
*有些位调用8753D可能不支持的指令。
这可能导致事情挂起/ *它是命令行驱动的。
*它仅以源代码格式提供 - 您需要自己编译。
*它没有抛光。
没有说明,但我想我可以写一些。
>在我之前的案例中,提到的点数是801,因此我认为它花费了更长的时间,我们不知道为什么VNA花了这么多时间来保存数据。
它没有给我任何201分,需要9分钟才能保存。
我已将CSV格式的8720D上的数据保存到软盘中,并且没多久。
当然不到一分钟。
.s2p和.csv文件在结构上非常相似,因此大小几乎相同,保存时间应该几乎相同。
>此外,这次我以某种方式将屏幕显示保留为史密斯圆图,我可以在VNA屏幕的左上角看到所有S参数被逐个调用并保存在软盘上。
在前面的例子中,我没有那么多的可见性,也许由于这个原因,我很困惑数据是如何通过软盘存储的。
但我现在很清楚。
>>另一个短暂的疑问,我有85033C校准套件和我用于VNA校准。
现在,当我开始校准时,我需要选择3.5 mmC或3.5 mmD的套件类型。
我很困惑选择哪一个。
截至目前,我选择的是3.5 mmC。
我对么 ?
我怀疑这是正确的,但请查看VNA上的手册和固件说明,看看它支持哪些校准套件。
至少在85033E上,没有必要指出连接器的性别,因为男性和女性的属性是相同的。
假设85033C也是如此,那么我之前关于测试端口性别的观点是不相关的。
另一种方法是查看Agilent网站并检查85033C的参数。
然后查看VNA并查看选择3.5mmC时使用的定义。
我怀疑他们是一样的。
我在8720D上发现,支持的校准套件与安捷伦网站上的内容不一致。
支持的校准套件随固件版本而变化。
戴夫

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  > {quote:title=saviour2009 wrote:}{quote}
> Hi Dave,

> I tried again and followed some of the points you had mentioned in your reply. I noticed that the VNA is taking a good amount of time to save the data in the .S2P format. Like in my case I selected the "Number of points = 201" and it was nearly taking around 9 minutes to save this data onto the floppy disk in .S2P format.

I was not aware the 8753D supported saving in .S2P format. I have a very old 8753A (3 GHz) and a somewhat less old 8720D (20 GHz), but neither of them support saving in .s2p format. I note the 8753D was supported until 2005, and the 8720D to 2004, so perhaps HP added .2SP format in the later versions of the 8753 series. I believe though the 8720 and 8753 share some code. But my firmware version basically upgrades my machine to an 8720ES, so I'm a bit surprized the 8753D supports saving in .s2p format. But perhaps it does. 

9 minutes to save a .s2p file seems crazy. It typically take me about about 30 seconds to save all 4 S-parameters to a .s2p file over the GPIB bus, using software I wrote myself. Your welcome to a copy of that if you want, but there are some "gotchas"

* It only works with a National Instruments GPIB board. 
* It will only work on Unix and possibly Linux systems
* It has only been tested on an 8720D running Solaris 10 on a SPARC processor. 
* There are some bits which call instructions which might not be supported on an 8753D. That might cause things to hang/
* It is command line driven. 
* It's only available in source code format - you would need to compile it yourself. 
* It is not polished. There are no instructions, but I guess I could write some. 

> In my earlier cases, the number of points were mentioned to be 801 and hence I assume it was taking much longer time with us no clue why was the VNA taking so much time to save data.

It does not make any sence to me for 201 points to take 9 minutes to save. I've saved data on my 8720D in CSV format to a floppy, and it did not take long. Certainly less than a minute. A .s2p and .csv file are quite similar in structure, and so the sizes will be nearly identical and the time to save should be nearly identical. 

> Also, this time somehow I left the screen display as Smith chart and I could see in the top left part of the VNA screen that all the S parameters are being called one by one and saved over the floppy disk. In the earlier case, I didn't have this much visibility and perhaps due to this reason I was confused how the data was getting stored over the floppy disk. But I am clear now.

> Another short doubt, I have 85033C calibration kit with me and I am using this for VNA calibration. Now, when I start the calibration I need to select the kit type either 3.5 mmC or 3.5 mmD. I am confused as to which one to select. As of now, I am selecting 3.5 mmC. Am I correct ?

I suspect that is correct, but check the manual and firmware notes on the VNA to see what cal kits it supports. At least on the 85033E, there is no need to specity the sex of the connector as the properties of the males and females are the same. Assuming that is true with the 85033C, then my earlier point about the sex of the test port is not relevant. 

Another way is to look on the Agilent web site and check the parameters for the 85033C. Then look in your VNA and see what definitions it used when you chose 3.5mmC. I suspect they are the same. 

I've found on the 8720D, the cal kits supported does not agree with what is on the Agilent web site. The supported cal kits changed with firmware version. 

Dave
2019-3-5 09:09:21 评论

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脑洞大赛9 发表于 2019-3-5 08:18
> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>辐射电阻和抗损耗的概念是否与在不同频率下显示的多次下降有关,因为我们使用网络分析仪估计调谐频率
天线
>>此外,为了交叉检查,我们可以去测量S11和S21参数。

嗨,Joel博士,对HP8753D的任何想法花了这么多时间来保存.S2P格式的数据。
我没有执行测量周期。
points = 401,将数据保存在软盘上需要大约25分钟。
我真的很困惑为什么VNA花了这么多时间来保存数据。
任何建议将不胜感激.. !!
谢谢...!!

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Hi Dr. Joel,

Any idea towards the HP8753D taking so much time to save the data in .S2P format. I performed the measurement cycle for no. of points = 401 and it took around 25 minutes to save the data on the floppy disk. I am really confused as to why the VNA is taking so much time to save the data.

Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated..!!

Thanks...!!
2019-3-5 09:23:50 评论

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> {quote:title = saviour2009写道:} {quote}>嗨Joel博士,>> HP8753D的任何想法花了这么多时间以.S2P格式保存数据。
我没有执行测量周期。
points = 401,将数据保存在软盘上需要大约25分钟。
我真的很困惑为什么VNA花了这么多时间来保存数据。
>>任何建议都将不胜感激.. !!
>>谢谢...... !!
好吧,我不是乔尔博士,但对这些问题的一些答案可能会让你有所帮助,或者至少让乔尔继续下去。
1)它是否实际访问软盘25分钟 - 即你能听到电机运行25分钟吗?
2)软盘听起来好像写入磁盘有问题吗?
也许它只是在重试。
3)有可能有很多平均值,所以仪器在尝试写入磁盘之前平均N批数据?
我不知道这是否会发生,但也许可能会发生。
4)你试过另一张软盘吗?
5)您是否尝试过进行仪器预设(不是用户预设),除了写入屏幕上显示的.s2p文件外,对VNA什么都不做?
6)您是否尝试将一个磁盘格式化为DOS,另一个作为LIF格式化,并查看每个磁盘上是否需要相似的时间?
7)你刚刚在VNA中,只是在PC中,或两者都格式化了磁盘?
如果你没有尝试过两者,我会尝试两者。
8)它是什么类型的软盘?
我想知道该机器中的旧驱动器是否不喜欢写入“现代”1.44甚至2 MB磁盘?
也就是说,我在一年前为我的8720D VNA购买了一包10个磁盘,他们工作得很好。
我在8720D中使用的是:Maxell MF 2HD 2.0 MB Super RD II双面高密度135磁道每英寸这些是预先格式化的。
9)如果仪器以其他格式写入,是否需要花费很长时间才能以其他格式(例如.csv或.jpg)写入数据?
就个人而言,我发现通过GPIB总线获取数据比使用软盘更容易。
我的8720D无论如何都不会写.s2p文件,但即使它确实如此,我宁愿设置并通过GPIB获取数据。
我知道有些人已经用HP 8753系列VNA替换了能够写入USB记忆棒的软盘驱动器。
这不是我个人会做的事情,安捷伦可能会拒绝校准VNA,如果它有这样的修改,但如果你想看到这样做,请搜索hp_agilent_equipment@yahoogroups.com档案。
戴夫

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  > {quote:title=saviour2009 wrote:}{quote}
> Hi Dr. Joel,

> Any idea towards the HP8753D taking so much time to save the data in .S2P format. I performed the measurement cycle for no. of points = 401 and it took around 25 minutes to save the data on the floppy disk. I am really confused as to why the VNA is taking so much time to save the data.

> Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated..!!

> Thanks...!!

Well, I'm not Dr. Joel, but a few answers to these questions might get you some way, or at least give Joel more to go on. 

1) Is it actually accessing the floppy disk for 25 minutes - i.e. can you hear the motor going for 25 minutes? 

2) Does the floppy sound as though it is having trouble writing to the disk? Perhaps it is just retrying. 

3) It is possible there is a lot of averaging on, so the instrument is averaging N lots of data before trying to write to disk? I've no idea if that would happen, but perhaps it might. 

4) Have you tried another floppy disk? 

5) Have you tried doing an instrument preset (not a user preset), do nothing with the VNA except write the .s2p file of whatever is shown on the screen? 

6) Have you tried formatting one disk as DOS, and the other as LIF, and seeing if it takes a similar amount of time on each? 

7) Have you just formatted disks in the VNA, just in a PC, or both? If you have not tried both, I would try both.

8) What sort of floppy disk is it? I wonder if the old drive in that machine does not like writing to the "modern" 1.44 or even 2 MB disks? That said, I purchased a pack of 10 disks about a year ago for my 8720D VNA, and they worked fine. The ones I am using in my 8720D are:

Maxell MF 2HD
2.0 MB
Super RD II
double sided high density
135 tracks per inch
These are pre-formatted. 

9) Does it take a long time to write data in other formats, such as .csv, or .jpg if the instrument will write in other formats? 

Personally I find it a lot easier to grab data over a GPIB bus than I do floppies. My 8720D will not write .s2p files anyway, but even if it did, I'd rather set things up and grab data via GPIB. 

I know some people have replaced the floppy drives in HP 8753 series VNA with devices able to write to USB sticks. It is not something I would personally do, and Agilent might refuse to calibrate a VNA if it had such a modification, but search the 
hp_agilent_equipment@yahoogroups.com archives if you want to see about doing that. 


Dave
2019-3-5 09:36:10 评论

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嗨Dave,我们没有使用GPIB总线,因为VNA很老了,我们不确定我们是否会得到合适的电缆。
我们不能花更多的时间来解决这个问题。
我们已经花了几天时间来解决这个问题,但还没有用。
除了你提到的一些事情,我已经尝试了大部分内容。
我在系统和VNA上都做了格式化磁盘并尝试保存,但没有用。
我尝试用LIF和DOS格式进行格式化,没用。
3.当我按下Save按钮时,我可以看到VNA屏幕显示为“Saving:Data Array”,并且每个4 S参数都会在屏幕上交替显示,表示这些值是逐个存储的

最后,当进行.S2P格式转换时,它甚至会显示数据转换正在进行。
所以,我怀疑这是磁盘驱动器的问题。
它是一块1.44 MB的软盘。
Maxell,MF2-HD,双面。
我曾尝试使用不同的软盘保存数据,但它们都属于同一类型。
我将尝试使用不同类型的软盘或来自不同的制造商,看看是否有任何改进。
6.好吧,当系统在软盘上写入值时,似乎没有任何声音,它几乎表明VNA已挂起并且在整个保存程序完成之前没有任何工作,除了预设

我将尝试更多的东西,只是为了看看VNA是否开始表现良好。
按照目前的状态,我们不能在每次测量上花费这么多时间。
由于我们需要有足够数量的点,我们还需要分析时域响应,因此我们需要找出一些或另一种方法来使其更快地工作。
将更新您的结果。
谢谢你的所有建议。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Hi Dave,

We are not using GPIB bus, since the VNA is quite old and we are not sure if we are going to get proper cables that would work. We can't afford to spend more time on fixing this problem. We have already spent a couple of days fixing this issue, but to no use yet.

Barring a few of the things you have mentioned, I have tried most of them. 

1. I did format disk both on the system and VNA and tried saving, didn't work.

2. I tried formatting both in LIF and DOS format, no use.

3. When I press the Save button, I can see the VNA screen showing as "Saving: Data Array" and each of the 4 S parameters keep getting displayed alternately on the screen, as an indication that the values are getting stored one by one. And in the end when the .S2P format conversion takes place, it does even show that data conversion is going on. So, I doubt it is an issue with the disk drive.

4. Its a 1.44 MB floppy disk. 
   Maxell, 
   MF2-HD, 
   Double sided.

5. I have tried saving data using different floppy disks, but they all were of the same type. I will try using a floppy disk of different type or from a different manufacturer and see if any improvement.

6. Well, there doesn't seem to be any sound in between when the system is writing values on the floppy disk, it almost gives an indication that the VNA has hanged and nothing will work until the whole saving procedure is done, except preset.

I am going to try a few more things, just to see if the VNA starts behaving well. As per the current state, we can't afford to spend so much time on each measurement. As we need to have sufficient number of points and we need to analyze the time domain response as well and hence we need to figure out something or the other way to make it work faster.

Will update you what the results are. Thanks for all the suggestions though.
2019-3-5 09:44:11 评论

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kiifwerw 发表于 2019-3-5 09:44
嗨Dave,我们没有使用GPIB总线,因为VNA很老了,我们不确定我们是否会得到合适的电缆。
我们不能花更多的时间来解决这个问题。
我们已经花了几天时间来解决这个问题,但还没有用。

它很可能是朝南的磁盘驱动器。
惠普(安捷伦之前)推迟将软盘驱动器放入仪器中,部分原因是因为它们非常不可靠。
你的事实已经持续了20年(自推出8753D以来的20年......你还有另一台20年的电脑吗?),这意味着我们可能选择了一个好的驱动器。
如果您不想转移到GPIB(顺便说一句,Agilent VEE有一个非常好的驱动程序,让8753读取S2P数据),您可能需要打开钱包并升级到现代VNA。
在这种情况下,ENA是一个很好的选择。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  It very likely could be the disc drive going south.  HP (before Agilent) was late putting floppy drives into instruments in part because they are notoriously unreliable.  The fact that yours has lasted 20 years (yes 20 years since the 8753D was introduced...do you have another computer that is 20 years old?), means we probably picked an OK drive.

If you don't want to move to GPIB (by the way, Agilent VEE has a very nice driver for the 8753 to read S2P data), you probably will needed to crack open your wallet and updgrade to a modern VNA.  The ENA is a good option in such a case.
2019-3-5 09:55:54 评论

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脑洞大赛9 发表于 2019-3-5 09:55
它很可能是朝南的磁盘驱动器。
惠普(安捷伦之前)推迟将软盘驱动器放入仪器中,部分原因是因为它们非常不可靠。
你的事实已经持续了20年(自推出8753D以来的20年......你还有另一台20年的电脑吗?),这意味着我们可能选择了一个好的驱动器。

也许你是对的。
有任何解决这个问题的方法吗 ??
此外,我尝试了HP 8720D VNA,发现它不支持.S2P格式,正如Dave所提到的那样。
但是当我看到用户手册时,它说它支持.S2P格式。
如何确保我没有做任何错误,因为它没有以.S2P格式保存数据?
问候,

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Perhaps you are correct. Anyway to fix this ??

Moreso, I tried HP 8720D VNA and found that it doesn't support the .S2P format, as was mentioned by Dave also. But when I see the user manual, it says that it supports the .S2P format. How to ensure that I am not doing anything wrong cause of which it is not saving the data in .S2P format ?

Regards,
2019-3-5 10:02:28 评论

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kiifwerw 发表于 2019-3-5 10:02
也许你是对的。
有任何解决这个问题的方法吗 ??
此外,我尝试了HP 8720D VNA,发现它不支持.S2P格式,正如Dave所提到的那样。

如果8720D有一个更新的CPU(或选项000),那么它可以加载8753ES代码,它支持S2P。
否则,不是。
你正在运行什么rev固件。
正如我记得的那样,Rev 7.74是最新的。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  if the 8720D has a newer CPU (or option 000) then it can load 8753ES code which does support S2P.  Otherwise, not.  What rev firmware are you running.  Rev 7.74 is the latest, as I remember.
2019-3-5 10:18:45 评论

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8753D和872xD上的固件6.12引入了保存S2P文件的能力,但6.12保存的速度有点慢,并且在6.14中得到了改进。
请参阅6.12增强#9和6.14增强#1:[http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/firmware/6xmerge.htm]。
如果您的8720D具有6.xx或更低的固件,那么它具有较旧的CPU板,其中升级固件涉及安装一组具有更新固件的EPROM。
我们(安捷伦)不再销售该升级套件,因为这些分析仪现在已经不再支持生命周期了。
如果您有7.xx固件版本,那么您可以使用Dr_joel指出的S2P功能,并且还意味着您拥有较新的CPU板,其中固件可通过软盘升级。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Firmware 6.12 on 8753D and 872xD introduced the ability to save S2P files, but 6.12 saved them somewhat slowly and that was improved in 6.14; see 6.12 Enhancement #9 and 6.14 Enhancement #1 at: [http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/firmware/6xmerge.htm].  If your 8720D has Firmware 6.xx or lower, then it has the older CPU board where upgrading firmware involved installing a set of EPROMs with the updated firmware on them.  We (Agilent) no longer sell that upgrade kit given that those analyzers are now long out of support life.

If you have a 7.xx firmware revision then you do have the S2P feature as Dr_joel pointed out and also implies you have the newer CPU board, where firmware was upgradeable via floppy disk.
2019-3-5 10:37:32 评论

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> {quote:title = bhokkan写道:} {quote}> 8753D和872xD上的固件6.12引入了保存S2P文件的能力,但6.12保存的速度有点慢,而且在6.14中得到了改进。
请参阅6.12增强#9和6.14增强#1:[http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/firmware/6xmerge.htm]。
如果您的8720D具有6.xx或更低的固件,那么它具有较旧的CPU板,其中升级固件涉及安装一组具有更新固件的EPROM。
我们(安捷伦)不再销售该升级套件,因为这些分析仪现在已经不再支持生命周期了。
>>如果您有7.xx固件版本,那么您可以使用Dr_joel指出的S2P功能,并且还意味着您拥有较新的CPU板,其中固件可通过软盘升级。
有没有一些技巧可以做到这一点,就像我在Joel的帖子中提到的那样,尽管在我的8720D中使用了新的CPU板,但我看不到.s2p文件的任何方法。
我只能看到.cvs和.jpg Dave

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  > {quote:title=bhokkan wrote:}{quote}
> Firmware 6.12 on 8753D and 872xD introduced the ability to save S2P files, but 6.12 saved them somewhat slowly and that was improved in 6.14; see 6.12 Enhancement #9 and 6.14 Enhancement #1 at: [http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/firmware/6xmerge.htm].  If your 8720D has Firmware 6.xx or lower, then it has the older CPU board where upgrading firmware involved installing a set of EPROMs with the updated firmware on them.  We (Agilent) no longer sell that upgrade kit given that those analyzers are now long out of support life.

> If you have a 7.xx firmware revision then you do have the S2P feature as Dr_joel pointed out and also implies you have the newer CPU board, where firmware was upgradeable via floppy disk.

Is there some trick to doing this, as I mentioned in my post to Joel, I can't see any way to .s2p file, despite having the latest firmware with the new CPU board in my 8720D. All I can see is .cvs and .jpg

Dave
2019-3-5 10:52:19 评论

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嗨Dave,以下是来自[http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/document.htm]的872xES / ET型号用户指南第4-42页的摘录。
8753E用户指南中也提供了完全相同的措辞,因为您拥有较新的CPU和最新固件,因此8720D的行为应该相同:S2P数据格式此格式创建描述频率相关的线性网络参数的组件数据文件2
端口组件。
这些文件被分配了一个带有后缀“S”的文件名,并且只输出(即,它们不能被分析器读入)。
最多保存两个S2P文件:S1为通道1,S2为通道2.S2P文件不存储在通道3或通道4中,因为数据是冗余的。
每个S2P文件包含所有四个S参数数据。
只有满足以下所有条件时才会输出S2P文件:•打开完整的双端口或TRL双端口校正•使用“DEFINE DISK SAVE”选择“DATA ARRAY ON”或“DATA ONLY ON”
•选择“保存使用ASCII”错误纠正数据CITI文件始终与S2P文件一起保存。

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  Hi Dave, the following is an excerpt from page 4-42 of the User's Guide for the 872xES/ET models from: [http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/document.htm].  Exact same wording is also present in the 8753E User's Guide, and behavior ought to be the same for your 8720D since you have the newer CPU and latest firmware:

S2P Data Format
This format creates component data files that describe frequency dependent linear network parameters for 2 port components. These files are assigned a file name with the suffix "S" and are only output (that is, they cannot be read in by the analyzers).
Up to two S2P files are saved: S1 for channel 1, and S2 for channel 2. S2P files are not stored for channel 3 or channel 4 because the data would be redundant. Each S2P file contains all four S-parameter data.
An S2P file is only output when the all of following conditions are met:
•a full two-port or TRL two-port correction is turned on
• 'DATA ARRAY ON' or 'DATA ONLY ON' is selected using 'DEFINE DISK SAVE'
• 'SAVE USING ASCII' is selected
Error-corrected data CITI files are always saved along with S2P files.
2019-3-5 11:07:32 评论

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uwyywefwd 发表于 2019-3-5 11:07
嗨Dave,以下是来自[http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/document.htm]的872xES / ET型号用户指南第4-42页的摘录。
8753E用户指南中也提供了完全相同的措辞,因为您拥有较新的CPU和最新固件,因此8720D的行为应该相同:S2P数据格式此格式创建描述频率相关的线性网络参数的组件数据文件2
端口组件。

> {quote:title = bhokkan写道:} {quote}> Hi Dave,以下内容摘自872xES / ET模型的用户指南第4-42页:[http://na.tm.agilent。
COM / 8720 / document.htm]。
8753E用户指南中也提供了完全相同的措辞,因为您拥有较新的CPU和最新固件,因此8720D的行为应该相同:>> S2P数据格式>此格式创建描述频率相关线性网络的组件数据文件
2端口组件的参数。
这些文件被分配了一个带有后缀“S”的文件名,并且只输出(即,它们不能被分析器读入)。
>最多保存两个S2P文件:S1为通道1,S2为通道2.S2P文件不存储在通道3或通道4中,因为数据是冗余的。
每个S2P文件包含所有四个S参数数据。
>只有在满足以下所有条件时才输出S2P文件:>•打开完整的双端口或TRL双端口校正>•使用'DEFINE选择'DATA ARRAY ON'或'DATA ONLY ON'
DISK SAVE'>•选择“保存使用ASCII”>纠错后的数据CITI文件始终与S2P文件一起保存。
谢谢。
我以前从未注意到“DEFINE DISK SAVE”菜单 - 我将不得不更详细地看一下。
按照你上面的描述进行设置之后,带有固件7.74的8720D确实保存了一个扩展名为.S1的文件,另一个扩展名为.D1的文件。
菜单中没有任何明显的东西表明Touchstone文件将被保存,但它确实被保存了。
我找不到我的USB软盘读卡器,所以没看文件。
保存所有这些数据确实需要更长的时间 - 比以前用奇怪的.csv文件保存的更多。
也许总共用了一分钟就得到了1601分。
当然没有像saviour2009遭受401分的25分钟。
所以我今天了解到我的VNA可以保存Touchstone文件。
我不太相信我会使用这个设施,因为通过GPIB保存数据对我来说比使用软盘更有吸引力。
saviour2009应该考虑购买一些GPIB硬件。
尽管它的年代(发明于20世纪60年代),它仍然用于高端仪器,我预计它将持续一段时间。
戴夫

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  > {quote:title=bhokkan wrote:}{quote}
> Hi Dave, the following is an excerpt from page 4-42 of the User's Guide for the 872xES/ET models from: [http://na.tm.agilent.com/8720/document.htm].  Exact same wording is also present in the 8753E User's Guide, and behavior ought to be the same for your 8720D since you have the newer CPU and latest firmware:

> S2P Data Format
> This format creates component data files that describe frequency dependent linear network parameters for 2 port components. These files are assigned a file name with the suffix "S" and are only output (that is, they cannot be read in by the analyzers).
> Up to two S2P files are saved: S1 for channel 1, and S2 for channel 2. S2P files are not stored for channel 3 or channel 4 because the data would be redundant. Each S2P file contains all four S-parameter data.
> An S2P file is only output when the all of following conditions are met:
> •a full two-port or TRL two-port correction is turned on
> • 'DATA ARRAY ON' or 'DATA ONLY ON' is selected using 'DEFINE DISK SAVE'
> • 'SAVE USING ASCII' is selected
> Error-corrected data CITI files are always saved along with S2P files.

Thank you. I'd never noticed the "DEFINE DISK SAVE" menu before - I will have to look at that in more detail.  After setting things as you wrote above, my 8720D with firmware 7.74  did indeed save a file with a .S1 extension to the floppy, and another with a .D1 extension. There's nothing very obvious in the menus to indicate a Touchstone file will be saved, but it does get saved. I could not find my USB floppy disk reader, so did not look at the files. 

It did take a bit longer to save all this data - more than I've saved before with the odd .csv file. Perhaps it took one minute in total with 1601 points. Certainly nothing like the 25 minutes that saviour2009 is suffering with 401 points. 

So I've learned today that my VNA can save Touchstone files. I'm not so convinced I will use the facility though, as saving data over GPIB is more attractive to me than using floppy disks. saviour2009 should perhaps consider getting some GPIB hardware. Despite its age (invented back in the 1960s), it is still used on high end instruments and I expect it will be for some time yet. 

Dave
2019-3-5 11:22:17 评论

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所有人,对延迟回复表示歉意。
在过去的几天里,实际上没有时间通过​​论坛。
哦,现在我可以关联为什么我的8720D没有以.S2P格式保存数据。
不幸的是,固件版本是6.10。
为什么8753D需要花费大量时间来保存数据。
固件版本为6.12。
但是它保存数据的速度非常慢。
100分2.5分钟,200分8分钟,400分25分钟。
有什么办法可以减少这种情况。
安捷伦现在是否支持此固件。
我从你的帖子中得到一种感觉,它不再支持,但我仍想再次与你重新检查。
问候

以上来自于谷歌翻译


     以下为原文

  All, apologies for the delayed reply. Didn't actually get the time to go through the forum over the last couple of days.

Ohh, now I can correlate why my 8720D is not saving data in .S2P format. The firmware version is 6.10 unfortunately. 

And why 8753D is taking so much time to save the data. The firmware version is 6.12. But the speed with which it saves data is miserably slow. 2.5 minutes for 100 points, 8 minutes for 200 points and 25+ minutes for 400 points. Is there any way that this can be reduced.

Does Agilent support this firmware thing now. I do get a feeling from your post that it is no more supported but still I want to recheck with you again.

Regards
2019-3-5 11:37:03 评论

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